Married research scientists share their approach to solving the two-body problem in this episode. They also share advice for those interested in a career in academia, or how to transition to industry.
Transcript
Jess: First, can you tell us what is the two-body problem and what has been your solution to that?
Akshaya: The two-body problem is where couple who are like in academia secure jobs at two different places. You are ambitious about your career, but then you're physically separated in two different locations. Oftentimes, couples in academia face this problem because it's hard to find similar job at same location. Many universities have been trying to resolve this issue. I think first time in 70s, this term was coined based on physics. Sreenath and I, we are from the same field as well. So for us, it has to be the same department to get university positions at one location. So we're still trying to figure it out, but that's what two-body problem is, trying to figure out like position at same place while respecting your career and going after your ambitions.
Jess: You got to the point there with the passions. It's like a lot of people think, oh, well, why can't you just do something else? It's hard, A, to find the same position at the same time, or two opening positions at the same time at a university, but also, you spent your life preparing to study this one thing or learning so much about this one thing. It's a lot to have to give that up.
Akshaya: Oftentimes, if not faculty position, universities offer either research scientist position or some alternate positions, just still in academia, especially in US, that's the case. either postdoc or research scientist or another faculty position. So that way universities do try to work out some solution where you don't have to give up your career entirely. But for our case, we both are actually happy with our own positions. I hope next time we talk, we might have figured out some solution.
Sreenath: At some point, life catches up, right? And then you have to make a choice. At the assistant professor level, you're expected to be productive. You take up the job because you're interested in science, and then you realize that there is another side to life you need to kind of deal with. We have been doing a long distance relationship and marriage for the last seven years or so. When she was in the US, I would go visit her or she would come visit me. And now it's become like between two countries.
Tyler: I think it's also interesting in academia in particular, with the nature of doing a PhD and then postdocs, you kind of get used to jumping from place to place, but then eventually you try to find that place that you want to stay. And so that makes it even more complicated being a couple.
Akshaya: Yeah.
Sreenath: From what I've seen, there is a lot of luck to it with people who have been able to figure it out. Or you make a conscious choice at some point, like, okay, this is the place. Unfortunately, we don't have a lot of choice in these regards. You have this very niche skill, but then can you apply it for other kind of roles?
Jess: Sreenath, how did you move from academia to industry and back while still being viewed as an expert and up to date with current research in your field?
Sreenath: When I was interviewing for this position, I was doing all these interviews together, but they took time in getting back to me. By the time I decided to join at NEON, the university came back to me. Again, I was lucky. The NEON job was very, very close to what I did during my PhD and in my post-master's work. They knew about my work. I could translate my skills to what they were expecting, and I could translate what I did at NEON into a more research-focused team. This is what I'm going to do this summer, about four to five months of work at Neon. I'm trying to move it back into a more research-themed narrative for folks who might be thinking of moving or switching. What could be beneficial or helpful is to have collaborations or active collaborations. That is what I see my colleagues at NEON also doing. You could still do work that is within your scope as a private company. or as a private research entity, but still work with academics and research scientists so that your research career is also advancing and the other way around. For me, that is what has made my transition also reasonably smooth.
Akshaya: Academic positions generally opens you up to broad vision. You have to write proposals. You have to constantly think about how will you grow your lab, how will you mentor your students. Those skills are transferable. You get broader idea about your field. You also have to constantly think about what is application of your work. So in some ways, it does provide you different skill set. Even in industry, it can be applicable to both.
Jess: Sreenath, you said you're planning to collaborate with them on something in the future.
Sreenath: Yeah, I was working on something while I was at Neon, essentially on how do you diagnose tower-induced noise or tower-induced structures in sonic anemometric data. Right now, they're just screening the data. We wanted to actually diagnose if there is an effect on measured data, and if there is an effect, how do you find it, which I think is a really good research question. It has been implemented in Neon's process flow as of now, and I have the time to write it into it. research paper. That is what I'm going to do this summer.
Jess: Yeah, you have also a lot of transferable skills, like you're using supercomputers when you were in postdoc. You have really strong computing skills and coding skills that they can use in industry.
Sreenath: Part of my PhD was on numerical modeling. It is a very valuable skill. Also, I want to say that not a lot of people are trained to make field measurements. I think now there is a change in private entities making flux measurement versus back when we started as PhD students. Cost is the more prohibitive factor in terms of making field measurements, and now they're probably coming down with all these low-cost sensors. Hopefully that happens with field tech and field measurement positions also.
Jess: They can benefit from working with us because we can get grant funded to do things, answer questions that they might not have the time to.
Sreenath: That is something that the universities can do, right? You can ask. more research focused question that companies might not have time for, but they might need, because all of this is publicly funded research. All of this would be publicly available, and they can make use of this, I think is a good synergy between academic research and private capital.
Tyler: That's a good point. Like NEON is almost like a quasi-research based. It's not an academic institution per se, but it's doing a lot of research-based information on a spectrum between industry and academia, NEON would fall somewhere in between, I would think.
Sreenath: Yeah, my understanding is that NEON has a very defined scope. They can work within that scope because that is what NSF pays them to do. It's more like a research facility that operates like a private entity.
Jess: Akshaya, when did you know you wanted to be a research professor, and how do you balance those responsibilities, like teaching, publishing, mentoring, and then the service?
Akshaya: Since childhood, I always kind of enjoyed teaching concepts to my friends or colleagues. I would like to explain things that gave me joy. I never considered teaching as a profession growing up because my family is full of teachers. My parents, grandparents, they all have been in teaching or education sector. I wanted to be scientist. I realized with research professor, you get more freedom, you can choose your own problem, you can set up your lab. Teaching calling came back after I started teaching. I felt like I could do it, but my first semester was almost sleepless nights, preparing for classes day before and then going and teaching in the class. Now, as I'm teaching same subject second time, I'm enjoying it. This is what I like to do. It's not pressure, but it's joy of teaching because now I know the material. Lectures are structured and I can be more cognizant of what I'm teaching, what are concepts that I'm planning. I know their faces, they know me, so there is good rapport. This has been the best semester for me so far in terms of enjoying teaching and balancing research. It just naturally evolved.
Sreenath: You might have been a TA during grad school, but then you don't design the course as a TA. As a professor, you have to design your own courses and then teach them and then do your own research on top and later manage your own research group. You just have to Learn how to manage your time. We have only 24 hours. The first semester is kind of hard, and then it becomes easier. I guess it's the same when you have mentees with you. You need to find time for them, make sure that they're doing good. You learn to do it. You learn to be more efficient with your time. You just figure out where to spend it and how to spend it, and that is how you become better at it.
Jess: This next topic is a fun one, bringing work home. You both study very complicated atmospheric processes. Do you ever bounce ideas off each other for proposals or papers?
Sreenath: I ask Akshaya if this makes sense. I mean, we don't really talk more than that. Or if I am stuck at something, I'm like, hmm, this is happening, does it make sense to you? But more than that, I don't think we really talk about our work much with each other.
Akshaya: Yeah, we work at different scales. So Sheenath works on very small scale, boundary layer dynamics. And I work at large scale dynamics. The smallest scales for me are like hundreds of kilometers. So scales are very different. So research topics are quite different. We haven't collaborated yet. Oftentimes it is just whether ideas make sense to audience which is not from the field. We discuss in that capacity, but we don't bring work to home.
Jess: Okay, so in plain language, monsoons are much bigger than air parcels, so it's not the same. We're not necessarily building up each other's h-index by citing each other.
Akshaya: No, no, not at all. Yeah, zero citations. Likewise. Yeah. Yeah.
Jess: So what are some ways that you unplug and have fun when you're not doing research?
Akshaya: Both of us love hiking since Shreenath was working in Boulder. That was a go-to thing. We both love movies. Shreenath is movie buff. I just watch and sometimes cook together.
Sreenath: I really miss the food of my place, so I try to make food, and it reminds me of home also, and then it's something that you do with your. hands, right? We kind of sit at a computer and work. So it gives me some opportunity to do something with my hands. And that is actually very relaxing. And then I like to cook for my friends. That also makes me happy.
Akshaya: Yeah. And we have complementary skills. So I'm good at cutting. Sreenath is good at cooking. We manage that way. Yeah. Planting, like gardening is another thing that we both love. So we have been growing like small, small plants.
Jess: Oh, that's perfect. Are there any interesting similarities in the topics you study? I mean, are you guys both supercomputing?
Akshaya: I analyze big data and then try to make sense of that data with physical framework. So in terms of similarity, one thing that I've been interested in is length scale presentation extremes. I think Srinath is good in dynamics, so I would like to discuss that with him, which I haven't done yet. But there are some length scales that are used in boundary layer dynamics. I would like to learn more about it. I always find his work on these scales in boundary layer very interesting. Though it's a different dynamics, I would like to understand it slightly better just to see whether there is some framework that I can extend to large-scale dynamics.
Sreenath: Something that I've been interested in recently, in the last couple of months actually, is how boundary layer interacts with convection, like cloud formation, the feedback between clouds and surface energy balance. Because it's all the same system, right? There is evapotranspiration that happens. There is a localized moisture release. We can get shallow cumulus clouds. And then some parts, like the southeastern US, there is a strong surface atmospheric coupling. So There can be localized deep convective initiation, where shallow cumulus clouds that are over the patchy, forested, grassy land in southeastern Alabama, because of some lower atmospheric thermodynamics, they could transition to deep convective clouds. And I think the boundary layer is a key component of that. When there is localized initiation, so when there is a large scale synoptic stuff that is driven by much more larger scale processes like what Akshaya is interested in, I think there is a case to be made where land surface also can play an important role in deep convection. That is probably something that atmospheric boundary layer scales and convective scales can kind of talk to each other.
Jess: Sreenath and Akshaya both got their undergraduate degrees from universities in India. Sreenath left a job as a project scientist to attend graduate school in Wisconsin, and Akshaya was awarded a Fulbright scholarship at the University of Washington after completing her PhD in Bangalore. Akshaya, what made you decide to pursue a Fulbright scholarship?
Akshaya: I did my Fulbright during my PhD, in second year of PhD. When I started my PhD, I wanted to settle in India. But once you get into research, you also understand the value of collaborating with different institutes, getting exposure to different universities. In second year, I was like, it would be nice to have some exposure to different university settings. And University of Washington has one of the oldest and famous departments for our field, and Fulbright is a very well-known fellowship. I was like, why not just try?
I had one research question that could have fit well in University of Washington, so I worked with Dargan Frierson. He works on same large-scale dynamics, but his perspective was very different from what I was doing at IISc. At IISc, I was looking at data and trying to find patterns in data. With Dargan, he looks at very simple models. He breaks down complex problem into very small chunks and comes from the other side, which is something called idealized model, so you make problem very simple and try to attack only one question at a time, which I really liked his approach. So I was like, yeah, this is something different that I could learn from him. Thankfully, I got it in 2018, I got it in 2019 is when, which was my third year of PhD. I was also lucky that Dargan is super nice host and I got to learn so much from him, the different perspective on research.
Other experience that I really value is Professor Mike Wallace who was writing his book on general circulation of atmosphere with other co-authors like David Battisti. All chapters were ready. They wanted to proofread those chapters. So we were part of this advanced reading course. Different people would volunteer to read chapters and then we would present, we would try to find any errors, we'll give feedback with it. Language is easy, can we follow the arguments, how is book coming out. There was very different experience that I think I just got lucky that I could get at University of Washington. That was really nice that I could talk to authors whose book I have while they were writing that. It was very unique experience that I could get out of Fulbright. So it's not just academic, it's also cultural exchange program. We had very vibrant chapter at University of Washington where people from different fields and different countries who are part of Fulbright came together for potlucks. We also have like active community.
Once you are Fulbright, you're always Fulbright. You can reach out to people. They are from very diverse backgrounds. That was really nice experience overall. Essentially, that chapter I could add to my PhD. So it was a research exchange program where I spent nine months at University of Washington and I came back after that and then submitted my thesis. It was still part of my PhD.
Jess: How have those international research experiences shaped your perspective, attending at so many different institutions and doing like a rigorous research program, which you did, what are the benefits of getting out of your comfort zone, moving across the world to do international research? Is it worth moving everything across the world to build those networks, to learn those new things and get that different perspective?
Akshaya: I feel like when you change like the surrounding around you, I was still doing my PhD. I was working on similar things. after I moved to University of Washington, but at entirely different academic setting. So I got to look at the same question from two different backgrounds, where the training was quite different. I was initially looking at data, trying to find out patterns in data, but when I moved to University of Washington, with Dargan, his perspective on same problem, exactly same research question was very different, which is like breaking down into simple things and then attacking it through idealized model, one question at a time. peeling off all the complex layers. That was really valuable because I think that taught a very different perspective on research, which possibly it might have come eventually here at Indian Institute also.
But it's just maybe by chance it happened because his approach of research was different. Interacting with my lab mates, interacting with students with whom I'm still in touch has definitely helped. You get to see, like, different kind of research people are doing. At a given university or place, you will have people working on some things, but when you go to different labs, you see all of the possibilities out there that, oh, one can ask questions like this, one can use these techniques. Now with global connection, I know it's more accessible, but still going there and sitting in classes, lectures, I was also attending, auditing most classes. I think it really helped. I will definitely do it again if I have to. On top of that, you get to see different cultures. Of course, it is worth it.
Jess: We've got a Fulbright PhD student in our lab currently. I can't speak too much to how his international research experience has been, but at least in different countries, you've got different requirements for the PhD. Some are different years, you've got different exams. On top of that, you're having to learn, at least for our student, he had to get a new license so he could drive the truck to field work, navigating all of these things like taxes in a new country and healthcare systems. And so it's a lot to do on top of the existing research that you're trying to get done, but could definitely boost your international network that's valuable when it comes to starting your own independent research program.
Akshaya: Yeah, and on top of academic connection, I also got a couple of personal connections. Where I was hosted was Landlady, who was in her 70s, and she used to host international students, and I'm still in touch with her. So it was COVID time. So when I was about to finish my PhD, that's when COVID started. Not PhD, the Fulbright Fellowship. Middle of that, so like six months into my Fulbright, that's when COVID had started. So labs essentially shut down, and Seattle was the place where the first COVID case was detected. So we stopped going to lab, and I had to essentially work from home. She had a very beautiful home.
We bonded over those three, four months that we got together. She got some support. She's like very active, vibrant lady who needed some company and given the uncertainty with COVID, she wasn't sure about meeting friends and going out. But then I was there. We would host small parties. She would cook some nice food for me. Sometimes I would cook for her. It was actually a really nice time for both of us, though COVID had put us together We kind of enjoyed each other's company. We are still in touch, so I still send her some interesting things that I find she keeps me posted about, things that she's doing, she's up to. Yeah, I also got very valuable personal connections with my neighbors, with my landlady. Overall, my experience was pretty good.
Jess: I remember Sreenath when I was, I was staying in your apartment so I could, I think it was defending. When I was with Vijit and he had some friends over, it was a holiday, I think. They passed around like a biscuit or cookies or something. It was really interesting. But the reason I'm bringing this up is because everyone was talking about what they wanted to do after they got their PhDs. And everyone, even though we were all at UW-Madison, it seemed like pretty much everyone wanted to be a professor at IIT. So I guess no hate, no shade to UW-Madison, but it seemed like they were all really, really eager to go.
Sreenath: Maybe they wanted warmer weather after spending five years in Madison.
Akshaya: Yeah, and plus, IIT is like, in Indian university system, it's a tenure track. So once you get in, there is one year of probation and you're tenured. It's like, pretty stable job. It's less stress, but you can explore a lot of things. It comes with a lot of benefits, which is nice.
Sreenath: Now I'm curious, what were they doing?
Jess: It was a holiday. It was really interesting for me because they prayed to the goddess.
Akshaya: Yeah, I'm curious about this. Was it Diwali or something?
Tyler: Or, an elaborate prank on Jess!